clz Wrote:A Nihilism does not believe in morality, which I am a strong supporter of – more so basic human rights – everyone deserving equal respect. Please, if you are referring to something as generalized as an entire set of beliefs, please be specific on exactly HOW you feel I am border lining on it. (Though not a religion, I tend consider my opinions on human treatment as more Libertarian.)

B. I do not believe that people are naturally stupid. It is a product of their breeding, and, yes, I feel religion will eventually be done away with. It’s natural progression. Look at history. Greeks didn’t understand the reason for the sun to rise so they made up a story, they didn’t understand why it rained so they made up a story. Modern religions provide answers to the few “great questions” left.

I agree that people are becoming more self aware and educated.

I have known a lot of people in my life, most people do not even try. They would rather follow suit with whoever talks loudest (usually their parents) rather than rationalize circumstances on their own. Those people are stupid. They are sheep. Those people can allow religion to guide them where ever they please, and it would not bother me.

You have strong valid points, but you are an individual. I will step out on a limb and assume that you have been through some shit in your life that made you contemplate why things were the way they were. Most people do not have that. They are content in their ignorance. That is what I meant by saying people are stupid.

I feel that you are saying “throw religion away right now!” Yet, nothing in this universe happens instantaneously. Humans need time – years – decades – to make changes. Civil rights, women’s equality, there is still work to be done.

You say that people are smart, but made drone by religion. I say that according to cia.gov, 28% of the world’s population is illiterate (age 15 and over). Yes, it is a product of their environment, but religion is not what is making them poor or uneducated. However, religion does give people an excuse not to think, not to question.

By “quick to jump the gun” I meant that people are fast to assume that they know, when they don’t. That blindly saying, “sure it would be better if we got rid of religion” could be like saying, “sure it would be better if we got rid of all the guns.” It MIGHT make the world a better place. But the people who would use the guns to kill would still be there. Just as if/when religion is finally filtered away through education, the people who would still commit great acts of violence will still be there. They won’t be so ridiculous as to claim to do it in the name of their cat, but they will still be fanatically inclined to follow someone or something with such blind faith that they will be willing to kill whoever stands in their way.

If it’s not religion then it will be race. If it’s not religion or race then it’s sex. If it’s not religion, race, or sex it’s political affiliation. People are always bitching or fighting about something.

I really liked your arguments, you seem as though you’ve given this a lot of thought, but it was all ruined for me when you said, about Agnostics, that you “don't respect them anymore than those who are Religious.” I think that the biggest problem in the world today is a lack of respect. I do not have to agree with someone to respect them. I disagree with you. I think that you’re views are unrealistic and one sided without concern for the situations that make people as they are, but I respect you. And, though I disagree, I respect your opinions and your right to have them.

Finally, I will live to no one’s standards but my own. I choose to be agnostic. You complain that people pick religion, you complain when people don’t pick religion; it sounds as though you only respect a person who chooses the same side as you. It sounds like a trait of the people you disagree with most.

First Agnosticism. I should rephrase what I said. I have no respect of the belief on Agnosticism, rather than those who "follow" it (if that's how you would call it). I know lots of people who've chosen to be Agnostic, but my main argument with it is that it's basically, for most Agnostics, a way to hold nuetral ground between to far-left and far-right of Religious debates.

When I was an agnostic, my belief was the same as most, the "Who cares, I don't know or want to know" argument. Then it's when I came upon the discovery that that position is a flawed one, only because it essentially dismisses and forgives what is my main argument against religion; that it isn't good for the world.

I also don't assume changes would happen overnight, as I said;

Quote:Look at it now, there are more Atheists now then there were 200 years ago. It will only increase over the next couple hundred years.

I would WISH that it could disappear overnight, but that's far from BELIEVING it will. As like I would WISH to win the lottery, but I truly don't believe I will.

My solemn wish is that it will evaporate over the next hundred years.

While yes, some people kill in the name of whatever suits them, my argument is that if Religions were abolished, anywhere from half of the people who would typically be contorted into killing machines by it, might not because of its nonexistence.

Sure, those select few who only use religion as an excuse might find something else, but if the abolition of religion saved 1 life, that'd be a positive in my book.

There's other bad traits that a lack-of religion might cure as well. Such as the aforementioned prejudices against gays, bisexuals, or basically anything you can think of (I'm straight as an arrow, but as stated, I know quite a few of the latter).

I strongly believe that if society wasn't conditioned and structured the way it was by religion, that possibly at least this trait could be ridden of.

I grew up in an area where anti-gay sediment was high, and even because of that, I managed to break free (where most didn't) and don't care anymore. A hole is a hole. But without religion, and without all the anti-gay/bi sediment it forces on society, I believe in the future this would be minimalized, or outright abolished entirely.

My belief is that without religion, free-thought and rationalizations would be easier to come to.

Here's a kicker, I'm not entirely Atheist, to be honest. I have my moments when I contemplate a higher-meaning. This isn't, however, to say I ever greet or accept ANY form of organized religion. I simply try and find my own answers, most of the time it leads me to Atheism, but at times I'll fluctuate to trying to find higher-meaning. Not a god. Just a meaning for reality.

But that's another story.

I can understand what you are saying. I suppose where the difficulty for me is when you say "abolish," that sounds like the active, forced elimination of religion (which I disagree with - no one should be forced to believe anything they don't want to); rather than (what I think you mean) is the eventual progression away from it - passively.

Have you ever considered this? Religion is defined as "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects." Do you think that people would just gather together against something else? Say, the arguments between Vegans and Meat-eaters would become even more heated?

Ha, maybe not as extreme, but like the south park episode where Cartman traveled to the future and there was no religion, so they were warring over what to call the Aetheist group.

Humans always seem to need to have something to fight over.

clz Wrote:I can understand what you are saying. I suppose where the difficulty for me is when you say "abolish," that sounds like the active, forced elimination of religion (which I disagree with - no one should be forced to believe anything they don't want to); rather than (what I think you mean) is the eventual progression away from it - passively.

Have you ever considered this? Religion is defined as "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects." Do you think that people would just gather together against something else? Say, the arguments between Vegans and Meat-eaters would become even more heated?

Ha, maybe not as extreme, but like the south park episode where Cartman traveled to the future and there was no religion, so they were warring over what to call the Aetheist group.

Humans always seem to need to have something to fight over.

Humans inherently fight. It's instinctual, in the league of every other group-based creature in existence. Ants, bees, lions, wolfs, probably velociraptors as well, though who knows about that one.

I'm not fighting human nature, as much as I'd love to. I'm fighting against those who kill with the solemn belief that it's what there religion wants, not those who use it to excuse themselves. True, those who use it as a means to fill a personal desire to kill can't truly be stopped, but, that's a truly impossible trait to combat.

But again, I do find a fallacy in the concept of "something else taking religions place, that still makes people kill". I for one, can't picture any but a select few, kill over simple moral diversions like vegan vs non-vegan.

So long as not eating/eating meat isn't followed by "and if you don't, you'll get virgins, and afterlife, and internal salvation", I doubt as many people would follow it actively enough to kill over it.

So again, I'm not fighting the concept that humans will always war over something, so much as the fact that Religion seems to have caused more harm over the past than anything else, and without it, society itself may actually improve, if only marginally.

I don't believe you should kill for your "religion." Look at what the Muslims are doing for their beliefs. They slaughter their own people that won't follow.
Now for me, I don't have to kill anyone that stands in the way of what is right.
God takes care of that for me. Thats why I have to pray for some people.

Well I just watched Jesus Camp, and that documentary shows how extremist Christianity can become. In one of the scenes it seems as though the kids are praying to a cardboard cut out of BUSH!

Also, the founder of the camp is saying how Christians should keep up with the Muslims extremists. People like that give religion in general a bad name.

I personally believe in God, and while I agree that it's important to be aware of that fact and tell others, you shouldn't brainwash them. And just because it seems as though the camp is successful (which it is) it's only because of the brainwash NOT because all the things they are learning are righteous. It reminds me of the Hitler Youth. Hitler use to send young German kids there to become brainwashed Nazis and it worked.

Also if you want a decent commentary on the video check this out:

Specktren, in response to your statements, I believe that that person has the right to choose, I would die for the masses too, but I would also like the choice.

Snake,I also believe that religion will fade, but my reasons are again in the Bible, as the end times near, religion will become illegal and many believers will be killed(sorry if that sounds corny)

As for How it will become, you make statements like that most of the murders done in the name of Religion are based on the idea that they are doing their deity's work, that may or may not be true, but let me state that it is not really true(that the killing is good), aside from Islam(which I know little of), I cannot think of a religion that supports the killing of anyone, granted in the Old Testament, several acts could get you killed, but that was a purification of a culture, not the way it was going to stay. I am not saying that religion isn't used wrong I am saying that it is Being used WRONG, that the beliefs held and actions done, were AGAINST the fundamental doctrine of each faith, that you are blaming religion for the stupidity of the people.
I posted the Sermon on the Mount as an example, Christ preached love, and tolerance, basically that as long as it isn't harming others, allow a person to commit their sins(which is what Homo/Bisexuality are named as).
It is fools misinterpreting it that makes the issue.
I am not saying there isn't problems with the way people act, I am saying that religion isn't the problem, people are.
A Tool is a tool no matter who uses it, so get after the people not the system.

As for the Extremism, remember that TV doesn't always represent the majority, in fact my family, friends and acquaintances all cringe when the "Christian" on a TV show gets all bigoted, Once again Hollywood misrepresents a group because it is more interesting.

Sadly that camp there is horrid.
And the people trying to defend the faith in that video only have it half right.

Vote4Drizzt Wrote:Specktren, in response to your statements, I believe that that person has the right to choose, I would die for the masses too, but I would also like the choice.

Snake,I also believe that religion will fade, but my reasons are again in the Bible, as the end times near, religion will become illegal and many believers will be killed(sorry if that sounds corny)

As for How it will become, you make statements like that most of the murders done in the name of Religion are based on the idea that they are doing their deity's work, that may or may not be true, but let me state that it is not really true(that the killing is good), aside from Islam(which I know little of), I cannot think of a religion that supports the killing of anyone, granted in the Old Testament, several acts could get you killed, but that was a purification of a culture, not the way it was going to stay. I am not saying that religion isn't used wrong I am saying that it is Being used WRONG, that the beliefs held and actions done, were AGAINST the fundamental doctrine of each faith, that you are blaming religion for the stupidity of the people.
I posted the Sermon on the Mount as an example, Christ preached love, and tolerance, basically that as long as it isn't harming others, allow a person to commit their sins(which is what Homo/Bisexuality are named as).
It is fools misinterpreting it that makes the issue.
I am not saying there isn't problems with the way people act, I am saying that religion isn't the problem, people are.
A Tool is a tool no matter who uses it, so get after the people not the system.

As for the Extremism, remember that TV doesn't always represent the majority, in fact my family, friends and acquaintances all cringe when the "Christian" on a TV show gets all bigoted, Once again Hollywood misrepresents a group because it is more interesting.

I thought you said you were leaving.

Anyhow, you still, 13 pages in, are not getting my point.

Yes yes, you're not an extremist, whuppidity do. Clz spelled it out for you, too.

Quote:Vote, you really need to accept that your religion is responsible for much hate. You may not hate, but the majority of people who follow your religion do. Apologize for the fools doing wrong, and educate those you can, but don't run around blindly screaming, "Nuh Uh! My religion is awesome, you're a jerk cause you say that it's bad!" It is bad. However, Snake isn't attacking just your religion, he is talking about control through faith in any form. Muslim, Christianity, Catholism, Buddism...whatever. There are extremists in everything (Marguerite Perrin - Google her), but if you are going to join up with something that is renowned for doing some terrible things, then you have to accept the criticism. The Nazi party not what everyone thinks it is? If you join it, be prepared to defend yourself.

Now don't quote me on anything she said, I have a few differences, but the fact is, and the fact remains, that assuming religion magically disappeared, right now, the world would be a better place. The reason I'm not forgiving your specific religion, is because as you said, there are extremists. Assuming your religion disappeared, so would your religious extremists, even in your religion. So I rest my case were it stood before, 13 pages from now, the world would be better off without Religion. Simple enough?

Religion causes people to do the stupidest, most evil things that society has ever seen. Again, the Holocaust, the Crusades, the 9/11, all done in the name of various religions. Assuming religion did not exist, sure, we'd still have non-religious extremists, like say, those nature-extremists who bomb dams. But would we have religious extremism, and the death and destruction that follows in its wake? No.

Without religion, the world would still be a fairly f*cked up place, yeah. But it'd be a little bit better, and that's what I'm hoping for.